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The Impact of Being PSA Certified in the IoT Security Market – The Six Five Insiders Edition
by Daniel Newman | September 30, 2020

On this episode of The Six Five – Insiders Edition Patrick Moorhead and I are joined by Rene Haas who is President, Intellectual Property Group (IPG) at Arm. He is responsible for all IPG activities including product development, engineering, sales, marketing, and commercial operations — a huge undertaking for this burgeoning company.

Our conversation covered several aspects of digital transformation in the IoT industry including changes that companies are making as a result, along with Arm’s role and commitment to security across the market. We also dove into the importance of being PSA Certified — a standardized framework for securing connected devices — and what that means in the marketplace.

The Impact of Being PSA Certified

Our conversation with Rene also revolved around the following:

  • Why security is fundamental in the IoT industry and what is driving IoT security today.
  • How IoT security impacts all parts of the industry — consumers, OEMs, the software ecosystem and SIPs all feel the impact of security in some way.
  • The role Arm plays in helping clients navigate the tricky IoT security market including how Arm’s DevSummit is helping solve the challenges that these clients face.
  • A deeper understanding of what it means to be PSA Certified, how it is driving industry collaboration around IoT, and why it’s a unique framework.

Understanding PSA Certified

IoT devices are commonly used access points to attack a network and the impact of these increasingly common hacks is felt throughout an organization from ruined reputations to productivity losses and ultimately financial strain. Developing devices with security built-in, is a game changer for consumers, OEMs, and anyone who employs IoT devices. PSA Certified establishes a standardized security framework to be used during the product development process that allows companies to get to market faster — the ultimate goal in digital transformation.

If you’re responsible for IoT devices in your company, this is one conversation you don’t want to miss. Looking to get started with PSA Certified? Visit here. If you want to learn more about Arm security solutions, check out their website.

Listen on your favorite streaming platform here:

Disclaimer: The Six Five Insiders Podcast is for information and entertainment purposes only. Over the course of this podcast, we may talk about companies that are publicly traded and we may even reference that fact and their equity share price, but please do not take anything that we say as a recommendation about what you should do with your investment dollars. We are not investment advisors and we do not ask that you treat us as such.

Transcript:

Daniel Newman: Welcome to the Six Five Insider’s edition. I’m Daniel Newman, your co-host today, joined by my ever-present partner in The Six Five, Patrick Moorhead. Patrick, how you doing today?

Patrick Moorhead: Daniel, I’m doing great. We had a little rain here, Austin, Texas, but it’s nice. It’s in the seventies and my gosh, it even went into the sixties. It’s almost winter here. I can’t believe that.

Daniel Newman: You know you’re talking to a guy from Chicago, Pat, so I feel very little sympathy for your sixties and seventies. I’m glad you got some rain. That seems really important. You can tell that you and I are struggling with the not traveling we’re doing. Now we’ve resorted to talking about the weather, which is just fantastic.

Patrick Moorhead: I know, it’s pretty weak. We used to talk about our travel conquests 45 weeks a year. Now we’re talking about the weather or I don’t know, I’ve lost a bunch of weight. I’m not going to say this publicly, but I’ve lost a bunch of weight. I feel healthier. I don’t think I’m going to be an airport 45 weeks a year when the COVID thing is over.

Daniel Newman: Well, you look good. You sound good. I’m glad, because these shows take a ton of energy because we get to talk to some really great people. This show in particular, I’m very excited about. Our Insiders Edition is always great. We have some of the world’s most prolific executives from tech companies that are changing the world and this one will be no different. Before we bring Rene Haas from Arm onto the show, Pat, I just want to say, I’m really excited about this one. You and I, over the last several months, have had CEOs, presidents, top executives, from many of the Fortune 500 companies. But over the last few weeks, Arm in particular, has been a headliner in the news, some really big acquisition news around the company. We’re going to have a chance to talk to Rene about that. But geez, how timely, to have one of the top executives at a company that’s so influential in what’s going on in pretty much every device that we use every day to stay connected to the world.

Patrick Moorhead: We’ve always said, ships are eating the world. I know the software people want to say software is eating the world, which it is, but maybe we can both agree that they’re both eating the world.

Daniel Newman: Well, you need them both, but that software, it’s not going to run without a chip. So I guess we ought to go to the very, very top of the stack to figure out where things end up landing. Without further ado, Rene Haas, welcome to the Six Five Insider’s Edition. We are so excited to have you join us here today.

Rene Haas: Thank you very much, gentlemen. Glad to be here.

Daniel Newman: Rene, quickly, tell us a little bit about yourself, your role at Arm. Let’s set the stage for this conversation. We’ve got some great questions lined up for you.

Rene Haas: Yeah, sure. Talking about the weather, I am in a sunny California, where the skies are blue. They’re not orange. They’re not smoke-filled. Today is actually a very nice day here in the Bay area. I work for Arm. I’ve been with Arm about seven years. I’ve had a fun career here at Arm where, although I’ve been with the company seven years, relating to Pat a little bit, I’ve spent the majority of years outside of the country. Spent some time in China and was also in the UK for three years and just came back to the Bay area where I’ve lived here for about 25 years.

I’ve been with Arm, as I said, about seven years. I manage our intellectual property products group, or the acronym we call IPG, which is basically all of the semiconductor IP that we license to partners, the CPUs, the GPUs, the NPUs, the software. I manage the engineering, the go-to-market sales, everything that makes that business go. Before Arm, where I’ve been seven years and it’s been a great run, I spent seven years at NVIDIA. The news of the last week or so has some special meaning for me since I’ve spent the last 15 years of my career, as I said, at both those two companies.

Patrick Moorhead: It was great to get to know you at NVIDIA and then even meet with you more prolifically at Arm. Here’s the great part. You’ve worked at both. As Daniel precluded here, it was the story last week and is moving into this week that NVIDIA wants to acquire Arm. Both of us did multiple interviews. You did a bunch of interviews. I was on CNBC. Daniel was on a bunch of TV shows and there was a lot of discussion talking about the big opportunity that’s here. As in life, things aren’t always conflict free. I was curious, were there elements of the conversation that might need clarified out there? I saw a few of those threads. I was responding to them myself.

Rene Haas: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. We’re very excited. The potential combination of the two companies in terms of everything that NVIDIA has done around GPU, GPU computing, all the success they’ve had with artificial intelligence and such. They’ve been a wildly successful company, obviously over the last number of years.

At Arm, we’ve been really focused on a number of the end markets where there’s been a lot of really exciting growth as well. Arm has been well known for obviously being in the smartphone space, but we’ve also had some really great progress in the data center around autonomous, around automotive, and IOT. When you just think about how complex these devices are, how computing touches our lives… I think probably the greatest piece of evidence around that is the pandemic right, in terms of where we would be, or wouldn’t be, with the advent of technology, the fact that we’re able to do this podcast via Zoom and do it rather seamlessly. The cameras just work and everything sets up is just a testament to the fact that technology is just so central to everything we do.

When we think about what’s going on in terms of the future, technologies that are enabling all kinds of innovation, the sky’s the limit. So we’re super excited about it. We’re also happy, to your point Pat, to get in front of a little bit of the commentary about what this might mean to the industry. I’ll put on my Arm hat for a moment about our partners. Now a lot was written during the rumor period about what this might mean and what the impact might be. We obviously couldn’t respond to anything because A, they were rumors and we didn’t know whether it was going to happen or not.

But I can say, post the acquisition, the one thing that we’ve been very, very open with our partners and our customers, has been the fact that the Arm business model is not going to change. It’s been very successful the company for 30 years. There’s no motivation for us to change it. In fact, the beauty of the Arm ecosystem is around the partnership model and the fact that it’s an open system that partners can write software to and develop products on and it’s open. NVIDIA has no intent to change that. They’ve talked about it rather publicly. We have as well. We’ve talked to our partners about it.

That’s probably the one single thing I’d want to get out there, is that people look at this and say, “Oh my gosh, everything’s going to change.” It just doesn’t make sense to do that on the most practical level. NVIDIA has paid a lot of money for the business. At the same time, the value of the business is around what we’ve established for the last 30 years. So that’s probably the single biggest thing, that if I had to continue to talk about, would be reinforcing the fact that the business model and how we operate is just not going to change.

Daniel Newman: You hit it on the head there Rene. I was almost going to jump in and say something, but you said it right in time. I believe Jensen is pragmatic about it. I believe there are some very strong synergies. There’s certainly going to be a lot for the industry as a whole to look at, but an investment of this size, the largest semiconductor deal in history, was not made or decided upon without a lot of scrutiny and a decision that it needs to continue to return value to shareholders. It needs to bring value to the industry. I don’t think that Jensen’s going to look to see that dissolved by making some decision to make it unfriendly to all the partners and licensees that Arm is built out over the past decades. The company is, I think it’s going to be better. I think there’s a great opportunity. So I’m excited to see how it all turns out.

Now we want to use this time to talk about some other things, specifically some things that are going on related to IOT, security and a certification that Arm has developed. We’re seeing Arm’s technology in billions of devices now. With IOT proliferating, so much technology and data at the edge, and so much data being collected, security continues to be a bigger and bigger topic. I’m going to start broad and Pat and I are going to whittle down and we’re going to get narrower and narrower, Rene.

Let’s talk about digital transformation. I know it’s a buzz word. I actually just wrote my 10 trends for 2021 on this topic on Forbes, so it’s a trend I like to write about. IOT has transformed pretty quickly and I’d love to get your take on what changes we’re seeing as a result of the IOT and the transformation and what adjustments do you think companies need to make to adapt?

Rene Haas: It’s a good question. It’s a great topic. When you talk about the digital transformation of the IOT industry, and as you said, that’s quite a buzz word. What does that exactly mean relative to what these devices are and what they do? I think the highest level, these devices that are all across our home, were largely analog devices that had no computer interface and they had no interface in terms of how they access data. Since you’re going to dig a little deeper later in the conversation, I’ll uplevel a bit.

I’ve got a vacuum cleaner in my house. That vacuum cleaner, a few generations ago, had an on and off switch, and that was it. The vacuum cleaner that I’ve got near me has a bunch of sensors. It has a battery meter. It has a whole bunch of different modes it can run. It’s got to user interface. To the layman, that looks like a pretty cool vacuum cleaner with a nice little digital interface. Put a communication device in that vacuum cleaner, which the next generation will have, a Bluetooth sensor and stuff. That’s now a computer. That’s now a computer that can be hacked. That computer can be interfered with. That vacuum cleaner that looks fairly innocent, sitting against the wall is now a digital device in your home. So when you start thinking about these digital devices and you look back five, eight years and say, “Oh my gosh, do I have to think about security in a vacuum cleaner? Is my vacuum cleaner going to get hacked going forward?” Absolutely. What we’re going to see is all these devices that are right in your home or in your business and your car are small computers that access data that are communicating to the outside world and have to think about security the very same way you think about it with your PC or your mobile phone.

Patrick Moorhead: Yeah, I’m glad you brought up that. We talk about trillions of devices and we saw what happened when a bot net got out and hit all of the DVR’s out there in the United States. It almost took down Amazon. Amazon, I think we can all argue, has the broadest cloud footprint of anybody. That’s pretty scary when you think about hundreds of thousands and then to trillions. Why now? Why all this discussion about IOT security? Are we finally woke up and realized what we were about to unleash on the planet? I remember a day when people didn’t want to add 5 cents to a dollar SOC for consumer devices to keep it secure.

Rene Haas: It’s interesting, right? Because on one level it’s somewhat obvious in that if you put a communication sensor on any device and you allow it to connect to the outside world and have data coming in and out of the device, you have to worry about security. Many of these devices that were designed years and years ago just was not really thought about in the fundamental design. You think about it in terms of a PC or a handset, but relative to a vacuum cleaner or a set top box, or some of these other areas, they just weren’t designed into the products.

They just really weren’t thought about. Going forward now, that’s all changed. It’s a completely different paradigm in terms of how people think about designing these devices and how to ensure that security is part of the element. By the way, it’s done very differently when you’re talking about a vacuum cleaner or a blender or a toaster, because the interfaces are different, the APIs are different, how you access the product is different. It’s a very different approach. It’s very, very necessary, but at the same time, it’s not immediately obvious in terms of how you go about and do that. So it’s one of the areas that we’re very, very keen to be talking to partners about.

Daniel Newman: I just want that coffee and bacon IOT app, the one that you smell bacon and the coffee is next to your bed and it knows. But I want it all to be automated. I want AI. I want it to know what I’m going to wake up. I don’t want to have to set a timer. That’s not my thing. But in serious, it’s becoming more fundamental. The industry is becoming more aware, but how is this going to impact the industry now? From consumers to OEM, software ecosystems, SIPS. Now that it’s becoming a priority, what does that mean for all these different players?

Rene Haas: At the design level, and essentially Arm, that’s where we interface most closely with our customers and partners, and these are the people who design the actual products. They design the SOCs. They design the chips that go into the end products. Then ultimately they work across the systems. One of the cool things about Arm is that we have the opportunity to talk to everybody. We talked to Silicon Partners. We talked about OEMs. We talked to the software solution providers. It’s really all about how do I think about these security components of the systems at time zero. That is at the time that I’m actually designing the product, the time of actually building and architecting it. How do I think about incorporating it, what are the solutions need to look like? How do I assure upstream that these products are secure?

It really starts again, with the fact that security is one of the very first things that people now are thinking about relative to designing the solutions for these products that go into everything in our everyday lives.

Patrick Moorhead: It’s so funny. I can’t believe we used to debate whether we needed security in there. The one thing we found out with the Fishing Tank, and I think it was the Home Depot, is that’s how it was hacked, was through something that you didn’t think would be connected that was connected. That probably, the SOC in that probably cost about $5 and they lost about $150 million in value.

Arm is an IP provider, doesn’t make the actual chip, but is a lot of the brains and intelligence that is going to go into those trillions of endpoints. How do you see Arm’s role in that, Rene? On one side, you’ve got laissez-faire and okay, here it is. Everybody go at it. Security de jour to heavy handed maybe on the other side, to maybe orchestrator in the middle. How does Arm want to play this?

Rene Haas: A lot of companies like to think they’re very, very unique and they’re unlike any other company and in many cases, they’re right. We are a very unique as well. One of the things that makes us extremely unique is breadth, the hardware and software ecosystem that we work with. Just by way of scale, Arm partners in the last year have shipped a combination of over 25 billion chips. In Arm’s history, our partners have shipped over 180 billion chips. If you start to think about the population of people on Earth, 7 billion people, and you do the math, there was once an axiom that said Arm had shipped enough components for any person on Earth.

Depending on your math, I think we’ve shipped more components with our partners than all the people who have ever lived on Earth. That gives us a unique view into what the industry needs, what the industry is looking for. We watch that very carefully. We take that very, very seriously. We, not only provide solutions to our partners to build secure SOCs, but we also feel it’s our responsibility to work across the industry ecosystem and partnership, and be a leader in terms of the shared responsibility around security. That is, listen to what our partners are asking for. Listen to everyone who’s inside that value chain, again, whether it’s a chip guy or an OEM or someone building software solutions, and really be the shepherd, if you will, around what are the things that need to take place?

We do some solutions. So we obviously have the underlying IP, the processors and such, and we do some of the security elements, such as root of trust and crypto for allowing the product solutions to be very, very secure. But at the same time, we also have stepped forward and tried to do some things that were helping people understand that these products are indeed secure. We started an initiative a number of years ago called the Platform Security Architecture, and we were joking about its acronym earlier, so I’ll let Daniel comment about that later.

Think about it as a underwriter’s laboratory seal. In fact, UL is one of our partners around the certification, that essentially allows partners to certify on different levels, that the devices they are building are compliant to an architecture, they’re compliant to a set of guidelines, and depending on the level of certification, you can have a certain to compliance to they’ve actually been tested in the lab against software hacks, or they’ve been tested in a lab against software and hardware hacks. So we have different levels of certifications, one, two, and three, a number partners like Rene Sauce, like Cyprus, like ST, names that you know who have had their products certified.

What this will do is give assurance to people upstream that when they start looking at buying their vacuum cleaner or buying their dustbuster, I know it sounds a little bit crazy, but you’ll know the fact that they are actually secure. That is going to be increasingly important for all the reasons we talked about.

Back to the question about our role, we think we have two roles. We have one role to provide those solutions to our partners to build the products. But we also have the higher level initiative to drive things across the industry, because it’s a shared responsibility. It’s not something we can do ourselves.

Daniel Newman: Absolutely. It’s funny because Rene, I would say, there’s a lot of ecosystems that talk about security and they talk about the ability to guard against major incidents. You guys have really done the work to make sure that you’re prepared. There’s a pragmatism to that, to not just talking, but walking the walk and based on the experience, the partnerships, the testing, I like what you’re talking about with PSA. We’re going to hit that more in a minute. No jokes from me, Rene. I’m not going to make any jokes. I do that offline. Everybody that listens to this podcast knows I’m always serious. Said with humor, see no one can see my face because it’s audio. But anyways.

We’re going to talk more about PSA, but you’re also doing an event. We like to, here on the Insider Edition, give you a chance to show off your wares a little bit. You have an event coming up called Dev Summit. Curious how an event like that can help you carry this message forward and help solve some of these ongoing challenges around security.

Rene Haas: This year we are running a program that we would’ve done live. It’s COVID so everything is new. So we used to do a show every year, an event in San Jose. We called it Tech Con, done in October in San Jose, live event, about 5,000 folks. We’ve rebranded that to a program we call Dev Summit. But for those who are big fans of Tech Con, don’t be worried, Tech Con has not gone away. It’s now just been renamed and rebranded Dev Summit. We branded it on some level because of the obvious first part of the word is around developers. We were talking earlier about the Arm ecosystem and then the verbatim of all the devices that are out there. The vast, vast majority of the chips that ship with Arm have our CPU’s. Our CPU’s are only as valuable and powerful as the software that’s written to them. So when you think about the broad developer community that could be attracted to Arm, we just thought it was important to put an increased emphasis on developers. That’s why we renamed Tech Con Dev Summit.

Dev Summit goes live in a couple of weeks. It is virtual. We had about 5,000 folks or so who attended Tech Con. We’re looking for a bigger number than that this year, since it’s going to be virtual. You’ll have keynotes, you’ll have tech papers or things of that nature. It will also allow for a lot of interaction around the developer community, for all the products that Arm works with and our partners. There will be a heavy slant towards IOT, as you can imagine. These are all the things from doing small dev boards for developers, to things that makers would use, to a whole bunch of different areas.

We’ll obviously be talking about, I think we talked about, relative to security, which will be really, really important. Dev Summit should be pretty cool. I think it’s free. There will be keynotes from Simon Segars our CEO, myself, some guest appearances that I think folks might find intriguing, so I won’t give that away. So people should tune in. Then some really, really great technical content that people I think will get a great deal of benefit from.

Patrick Moorhead: Dev Summit is not new. I think this is the 16th conference that you’ve had. I’ve been to about, I think, seven tech summits. I think I’ve talked to you and Simon at a few. What I’ve appreciated is that you’ve raised the game on content, and it’s really a couple of different audiences, from uber tech to management, who wants to really understand from a company standpoint where you’re growing. I appreciate that you hold up your biggest announcements for this show. I’m expecting a big one here.

Back to being PSA certified, we talked about as an example of how Arm helps drive industry collaboration around IOT and security. What exactly is PSA certified again? You talked about, it has different levels, but why is it, and how is it, unique out there in the industry? I’m also agree in agreement with Daniel, the notion, amongst competing instruction sets, the notion of having a trillion devices with no center point, to be able to put something in place during a major security incident should scare everybody.

Rene Haas: One last quick comment on Dev Summit and then I’ll answer your question, Pat. It’s not so much serendipitous, but NVIDIA GTC is the same week as Dev Summit. For now, we’re two separate companies, so I’ll put the promo out that says, please attend Dev Summit because I think you guys will love it. Somewhat bizarrely those ended up on the same week.

Without going into too much of the detail on the PSA nuts and bolts and just talking about a little bit of what the benefits are and why it’s important. At their core, there are a number of elements that go inside the SOC that will fundamentally guard the data that fits inside that chip, away from software or hardware hackers that can attack it. It’s a specification, starts out with a bunch of things that you need to integrate. If you integrate these things properly and we provide a software programming interface to developers of these chips or systems that will access this protected area of the chip, you’re going to A, ensure that the data inside the chip or device is secure. You’re also going to be able to ensure that it can’t be hacked via software or via hardware, depending on the attributes.

But probably even more importantly than the technical underpinnings of what’s inside, because we have this certification process and the certification process really has a number of different guidelines that is a combination of questions that are asked by a lab in terms of, did you indeed include all of these elements in your design all the way up to a series of lab type testing, the end user who buys the end device or the OEM that’s trying to build a bunch of ships to build a system or the factory that’s trying to put together a whole bunch of different robots, the fact that you know that they are PSA certified, you have a level of comfort and confidence and trust that the design guidelines, relative to keeping the data secure, have been followed.

So there’s two aspects to it. There’s the aspect of, did you put the Lego blocks together relative to the root of trust, the crypto, the attestation, all of the things that the security experts will know in terms of the definitions, in terms of this is what makes it secure. But for them to transfer it from gobbledygook to, yeah this actually hangs together and it works and it’s been tested and it’s been verified and it’s been validated and I can get a level of confidence that what I’m seeing there actually adheres to a guideline. That’s what PSA certification is all about. So when we started this, we felt it was really, really important to match the underlying elements of the SOC, all of these little bits and bobs that make the chip go, with a process.

We think PSA going forward is going to be really, really important for all these edge devices that ultimately will all be connected. If you bring it back full circle to what does internet of things mean? It means all these things now have sensors and communication devices, whether it’s WiFi, Bluetooth, LoRan, they’re communicating. Whenever you’ve got data, and whenever you’ve got a communication channel, you’ve got a place where hackers can go. As a result, all these devices are going to need to be secured. We thought the certification process was really, really important.

Daniel Newman: It’s really interesting Rene. I was going to ask you a little bit about how you help businesses with PSA, but you nailed it. You really talked about it. Whether you’re building systems, the certification should provide a certain amount of understanding and guarantee to those you’re selling to, as to the level of security. If you’re consuming any of these technologies, it’s the same. But one thing I think we can all agree upon is that it is certainly becoming a bigger and bigger priority to everybody, as we all want to make sure that our data, our information, our money, our things, are safe and secure.

I’m going to fire you a little forward here, and I’m going to set you up with a tap in, but people that hear about this, our community of industry, our leaders from big OEMs that are building things and chip makers, everyone that’s using Arm and everyone that’s not, how did these companies get started working with PSA?

Rene Haas: We’ve got a lot of information on the Arm website that talks about different ways that you can get started. It runs the gamut from the IP that we make available, all the little elements that are needed to build the SOC. There’s a lot of information there in terms of those products. You can take a look at that. There’s a lot of information in terms of the APIs for developers, in terms of how you can get access to the product. Then there is a lot of information around the certification flow and who those partners are. I would take a look there.

We started this in 2017. It’s now 2020. We’ve got over 50 PSA certified products from 26 different partners. It may not sound like a big number when you think about 26 billion chips shipped. But when you think about starting in 2017, and I know you guys can both relate to this, there’s a time required to getting the IP in the hands of the chip provider, the chip provider to build the chip, the chip to go into a system, the system to be able to be built and tested, and then certified. So we’re thrilled with this number, honestly. It’s only going to get larger. You’ll see more and more in devices.

Getting started is pretty straight forward. I would say, go to the Arm website. You can search for PSA. There’s a whole separate landing site that describes the products, the technologies, and all the things I talked about that run the gamut from white papers, to the cert process, to the underlying IP. We’re super excited about it, and we think it’s important.

Patrick Moorhead: You made a tremendous amount of progress. I wrote about PSA the first time in 2018 during Tech Con. Your biggest announcement, I can’t figure out which was bigger, NeoVerse or PSA. I can’t tell, but you had prefaced that with the security manifesto, which was a nice way to pave the way talking about the responsibility of the entire industry to do that. Only two years ago, we were debating whether consumer grade IOT devices needed this. Anyways, hats off to you, Rene, on this.

Rene Haas: Oh, thank you. I would say hats off to the Arm team. I’m just here to talking about it. It took not only the entire team and inside Arm, but the ecosystem and our partnership. Couldn’t be more proud. There’s a lot of exciting things to come in this area.

Daniel Newman: In fairness, you get to be the proxy because you’re the one here on the Six Five Insiders. Rene, I want to also, on behalf of the Six Five Insiders and podcasts, say thanks so much. Thank you to Arm. Thank you for yourself, for showing up, spending some time with us today. Really enjoyed having you on the podcast.

Rene Haas: You’re welcome, my pleasure. Look forward to doing it again soon.

Daniel Newman: For everybody out there that wants to learn more about PSA certified, about Arm. We’re going to throw some links down in our show notes, and please feel free to click on them. Both Patrick and I have been covering a lot from where we started here on the NVIDIA Arm. There’s a bunch of articles. We’ll make sure we link to those. We’ll also have some info on Dev Summit. We’ll have some info on PSA certified and what it means. We want to keep everyone out there informed. Rene was a great guest, tons of thorough insights and just a really good show overall.

But unfortunately for everyone that’s having a lot of fun, that’s been tuning in, we do have to say goodbye right now. We love having you here. We love our community. Hit that subscribe button. Stick with us for our regular Six Five podcasts editions, but also stick with us for other insider additions. We have great guests coming on the show all the time.

But for this one, for myself, for Pat Moorhead, we’ve got to say goodbye.

Patrick Moorhead: We’ll see you later. Have a great day.

Daniel Newman