On this special episode of the Futurum Tech Webcast – Interview Series I am joined by Hans Kroes, Global VP and Head of the Industry Business Unit for Professional Services at SAP and Ross Dawson, Keynote Speaker, Strategy Advisor, Bestselling Author, and Entrepreneur. This is the first episode in a new series — done in partnership with SAP — where I will be speaking with advisors and executives across several different industries on the state of their industry and what we can expect in the future.
In our conversation we discussed the following:
- How the Professional Services Industry has changed in recent years
- A deep dive into how knowledge-based services are changing the industry
- A look into how virtual firms and the shift to hybrid work are disrupting the industry
- The monetization trends that are driving changes
- Ways professional services firms can nurture talent more effectively
- An exploration of the impact platforms will have on the industry
The professional services industry, like many other industries, had to rapidly accelerate digital transformation last year. My conversation with Hans and Ross explores how these changes are playing out across different areas in the industry and how technology can help. It’s definitely one you don’t want to miss.
If you’d like to learn more about the industry, be sure to check out our research brief Driving Everything as a Service in Professional Services.
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Disclaimer: The Futurum Tech Webcast is for information and entertainment purposes only. Over the course of this webcast, we may talk about companies that are publicly traded and we may even reference that fact and their equity share price, but please do not take anything that we say as a recommendation about what you should do with your investment dollars. We are not investment advisors and we do not ask that you treat us as such.
Daniel Newman: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Futurum Tech Webcast. I’m your host, Daniel Newman, Principal Analyst, Founding Partner at Futurum Research. Excited for today’s episode, it’s part of our interview series where we will be talking with experts across industries in partnership with SAP and the first one is going to be all about professional services. I have two great guests with me today. I have Hans Kroes and Ross Dawson so before we get started and jump into the show talking about this topic let’s do a quick round of introductions. Hans, I’m going to start off with you. Hans, welcome to the show.
Hans Kroes: Thanks so much, Dan, for having me today. My name is Hans Kroes. I lead our industry business unit for professional services globally at SAP which means we are on the one side looking at trends and working with our customer base on how can we make sure our portfolio fits to their needs and then also, for sure, translate this back to our product engineering organization that we get the solutions that help our customers deliver their value to client there.
Daniel Newman: Hans, welcome to the show. Ross, all the way from Australia, I’m not going to tell everybody what time it is because it may be the middle of the night but they’ll feel your energy either way. Morning, evening, welcome to the show.
Ross Dawson: Wonderful to be here. I’m Ross Dawson. I’m a Futurist keynote speaker and author. My fifth book is coming out soon, Thriving on Overload, on how to deal with unlimited information. But my first book back in January 2000 was on the future of professional services so I’ve spent a long time around the professional services sector with a few other bits and pieces thrown in, in between.
Daniel Newman: I admire all the writing. I’ve written seven. My most recent I wrote in 2018 called Human Machine and I’ve taken a hiatus of three or four years now. I did seven in just under eight and a half years, I wrote seven books and-
Ross Dawson: Good going.
Daniel Newman: I can’t even imagine though anyone else being as crazy. So you sound like you’re on that same trajectory as me but you know what? There’s nothing more interesting than the knowledge you take away when you get into that depth of research about something and then the ability to hopefully translate and add all kinds of interesting color to a topic like professional services here so I’m really excited to have you both here. It’s going to be a great topic.
Let’s start with that big 2000 book you wrote that’s probably evolved quite a bit over the last two decades and talk about what’s going on in terms of the change of the landscape of professional services. Over the last 5 to 10 years, we’ve seen the amount of data and information change at great scale. Talk a little bit about how you’re seeing the industry at large evolving.
Ross Dawson: My book at the time was about knowledge-based relationships, this idea that knowledge and relationships are inextricable, and that’s the heart of all value creation. I think that thesis is pretty well born out. So two major factors driving, well, all work at value, but in particular professional services are AI and connectivity. Work can be done anywhere and there are greater and greater machine capabilities.
This means we need to reconfigure what professional service firms are. It means that you don’t all need to be in the same office, that talent can be anywhere, we can blur the boundaries of organizations to be able to have internal talent, external talent, crowdsourced talent, client talent, combine that in different ways to be able to create the insights and value which we require. Be able to use that as one facet to be able to build more scalable services, delivery particularly, for global clients.
But one of the other pieces is, as we start to see more and more automation from what was delivered by humans to now being replaced by a simple workflow to sometimes what a quite pointed knowledge-based task, for example, in legal or in engineering, are now being done by algorithms, so this redefines the nature of that professional as the expert human, how they are supported by technology. And so, we are configuring a new style of professional service firm which is this amalgam of distributed talent plus technology to be able to create a far higher level of service delivery to clients than we’ve ever been able to do before.
Daniel Newman: It’s interesting. I love that word amalgamation which is all the things that we’re bringing together now to make services what they’ve become. Because basically, we’ve just taken what used to be a very human-led practice of great depth of knowledge into one that’s being coupled with technology at scale that’s never been seen before and at a pace that’s faster than anything we’ve ever experienced. That’s what the whole digital transformation topic is really about, it’s about pace. It’s about injecting pace into change. Professional service firms tend to be leading the way.
Hans, you’re obviously working with hundreds, if not more, thousands of companies. SAP has a massive customer library and having led this business, I imagine you’re seeing quite a bit of change yourself. What are some of the big changes you’ve seen in the past? You can do multiple decades or in this case, even just a few years, because in either case, I’m sure you can speak to quite a bit of evolution that’s going on around you.
Hans Kroes: No, it’s true. I think it’s in two ways. One is, let’s say, the business propositions my customers put out to the market, right? Typically, professional services firms are leading a lot of industry change. They are the first to come up with a business proposition, how to make life sustainable in manufacturing and many other and they can more and more do this now based upon data, right? The data they collect from their end clients and how they re-utilize that in order to build those business propositions and then become those experts on top of that. So the technology is driving this, I think, even in a faster pace that they’re building up these and the automation of the data also at least, they could do it faster potentially even in a better commercial way.
I think the one thing and that’s something that happens over the past three years, I still see a lot of professional services firms internally operate quite traditionally, right? There’s a lot of time material. They consider to think, “Hey, if we double the resources, we will double the revenue,” which is not the case. This is the mind shift and change they still need to make on we should make better use of technology, we should implement the technology into our propositions to the end customers much more. And then, consider external exchanging or extending the business models that we have. They start to do it at a smaller scale. I would see some of the pioneers, the smaller firms, right? That are more local or regionally driven that have the technical savvy knowledge in-house. They become front runners here. The advantage there is that they could be global instantly, right?
Ross, you spoke about connectivity, right? We see a lot of firms that they might reside local but they deliver their services all around the globe because the data would help them to get there and the Internet and the services would allow them to do that quite easily. Whereas, their business propositions, they start to go into the technology direction. Interestingly enough, internally, right? They still need to make that mind change and shift and that’s what we’re working on from our angle to say, “Hey, now you have a platform for the future,” right? Your traditional time material business can easily evolve into more technology-driven services. You can pack them all in one commercial offer to the end customer. Think about your phone bill you get every month, right? You pay for your phone, you pay for your data, you pay for your text messages, etc. Those models in telco and different industries we can now easily apply into the pro-serv industry but it’s time to start adopting and going into that because there might be disruptors in the market that otherwise would potentially take over that business from you.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. Hans, you covered a lot of ground there. And so, something I glommed onto that you said though is about scale. You talked about doubling the size of the organization and doubling the revenue and that there’s definitely been a decoupling of professional service firms historically acting a little bit like law firms, right? Where it’s you add more associates on, those associates are billable by the hour, the higher the level, the higher the billings, the higher the billings, the higher the margins, and technology has been a great disruptor.
You talked about automation a little bit in there which is a really interesting point. I did an op-ed recently in MarketWatch where I talked about the decoupling of markets and which tech companies are going to be the winners and the way we are discerning winners in what I would call a contracting or a challenged economy which is where we are right now in mid-2022. I always like to put those reference points in these things because people listen to these things forever.
But mid-2022, we were seeing some contractions in the economy and that the companies that have deflationary aspects of their technology in the enterprise are actually going to do quite well. Things like AI, automation, process mining, analytics, where you can actually streamline, you can potentially up level the best talent in your organization and concurrently, you can streamline and automate processes that are routine, redundant, mundane, and professional service organizations, I imagine, are being looked into that.
The other thing though about your comment about scale, Hans, it’s really interesting, is that new, faster, more nimble, smaller, or virtual firms are popping up now, right? I mean, it used to be the architecture of a firm is this giant organism and those are still out there but we’re seeing different makeups with things like remote and hybrid and flexible works. Are you seeing virtual firms play a pretty big role in terms of disrupting professional services landscape, Hans?
Hans Kroes: I think they’re starting to come there. I think if you look at the last two and a half years, right? In the whole COVID situation and we all got forced to work from home and I think this has helped to break a lot of these traditional rules, right? If I see you, you provide output. I think all firms, all pro-serv firms, around the globe by now have delivered a complete virtual project, big or small and from simple to very complex because they had to, right? Nobody could travel. Customers would say, “Don’t come to my office,” right? Because we want to make sure nobody gets infected. I think the situation has proven that the mix of being on site, the mix of being remote and utilizing technology, that is going to help and I’m sure that situation will continue as we go forward, right?
There’s a cost perspective, right? The T&E on bigger projects, if you look at North America where people used to travel 150 days a year, right? This will be different, right? I certainly hope so that we find a much better balance between those elements and that hopefully also helps those bigger firms to transform saying, “Hey, if I have an expert at home, the person could work on three different accounts a day spending two to three hours on it instead of traveling to one facility and doing eight hours and we could also need that person somewhere else.” So the reuse of capacity on top of technology, I think, that’s something that we’ll see to continue and that’s what most of the companies tell me as well.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. I would think so. Ross, do you run a virtual business? I mean, obviously you’re out there speaking as a microcosm of the industry, right? I mean, you’re probably seeing quite a bit of growth to that virtual business model.
Ross Dawson: Absolutely. I’ve been a big believer and, I guess, long forecast. One of my books has been on crowdsourcing and creating value with crowds. And so, in professional services it has progressed massively but it’s not quite as fast as I expected but it’s of course accelerated massively in the last couple of years. So I think there’s a few points there. As Hans and you have suggested, part of it is that traditional firms are starting to have their staff sometimes located anywhere and be able to work completely virtually. We are seeing that large firms are also sometimes using completely external talent so initiatives like Deloitte Pixel, for example, where they’re using external talent and a number of other major professional firms doing that.
But also, a little the rise, not to massive scale, but to quite significant in some sectors, firms which are essentially virtual firms. Axiom Law in legal industry, Eden McCallum in strategy consulting and some others which have more interesting configurations like 10x for defined projects in strategy where they have a distributed team of graduates from the major strategy firms or Wikistrat, for example, which again uses crowds to be able to create value. So there’s more and more configurations, more and more possibilities and we’re seeing that both major firms, mid-sized firms have a high degree of virtual firms but also more and more the rise of these pure-born virtual firms that are sometimes having some really significant impact in creating real client value at… Sometimes more effective pricing.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Speaking of pricing, that’s something I wanted to run through with you is monetization models. I’m hearing all kinds of different things in the continuum of monetization. Obviously, like I said, it used to be a day’s work for a day’s pay and I’m being a little facetious when I say that. But we’re hearing things with everything being measurable now, at least, the idea that everything’s measurable now, we’re seeing more and more of this outcome as a service, we’re seeing results as a service, performance payments.
Are professional services firms seeing any evolution in the way they’re being compensated especially some of these larger projects where there’s going to be more key metrics associated to payments? Are we getting to a point where things like outcome-based models are realistic in the fact that companies can make sure they’re achieving targets and making them measurable? Because, I don’t know, even personally as a research and analysis firm, I feel nervous because there’s so many interdependent models of what you give, what you get, how fast your clients respond, how accurate the information you’re given. Can we get to a point where subscriptions and outcome based can actually be a steady drumbeat of the way professional services interact with their enterprise clients? Ross, I’ll have you kick that one off.
Ross Dawson: Well, well it’s very sectoral. The alternative fee structures are not new, again, probably 30 years ago we started to get some interesting, at times, projects which were outcome based and whatever sets. One of the questions is, where is it client led and where is it firm led? In fact, we have seen in quite a few sectors who have been client led but I think one of the models is subscription. And so, one great example of that is major firms trying to deal with mid-tier or smaller clients where they say, “All right. We can structure using a culmination of technology and sometimes some human expertise. We can price this so that we know what it costs us,” provides a subscription and the client must be paying so I think there’s more and more subscription models.
Particularly, when we look at platform based delivery also… As you said, everything is measurable so there’s some great collaboration. So BCG with KLM is a wonderful example where they have a joint venture. They, first of all, get efficiencies in KLM’s operations and then provide a service together based on what they’ve learned to be able to share the value which is created. So you can measure more but there are some places where either side will say, “We just want to stick with we’ll pay for people’s time,” so it will continue to evolve. There will be more and more interesting models, particularly as we get more, essentially, data, ones where we can agree that this is a fair assessment of value created. So I think there’s going to be more innovation, more experimentation, and we’re going to add new pricing models rather than replace old ones.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. So we wrote this paper together with SAP and the team and hopefully, if you’re out there listening to this, you’ll hit the show notes, check this paper out because we touch on some of these topics especially the idea of how we’re seeing the interactions and compensation changing between the professional service firms and their enterprise clients. These companies are paramount. They are imperatives to their businesses and have been for a long time. And so, the idea is sometimes… That these symbiotic partnerships that exist between firms and professional services organizations, it always creates tension, I think, when you start to say, “Well, we don’t trust the work,” and I’m taking a risk here, Hans, so bear with me, “We don’t trust the work, we’re only going to pay if we get a certain outcome,” so I don’t think we’re going to get quite to that end of the continuum. Yeah.
But I do think in a world where everything has become so much more measurable, I do think companies are going to say, “Hey we bonus our employees on performance. We have performance improvement programs that we decide which companies or individuals we keep working with.” Is it the same here? I mean, with SAP working with so many firms, I imagine you’re starting to at least hear the whisperings. What are you seeing on that end of change? Is it happening fast? Slow? What do you see over the next couple of years? Is it going to evolve?
Hans Kroes: I think that the first step into the outcome-based models is, let’s say, SAP as a company, we do use transition to cloud especially in the cloud ERP domain, mission critical business processes amongst all 25 industries and going for software as a service meaning high standardization of your core processes. On top of that, I build tailored solutions which would fit and make you unique.
On that first step, we see a transition with many of our firms, big and small, as they do these implementations to move from time material already to almost fixed price saying, “We can do the following for you in an X number of days,” for a country and a specific financial entity, etc., we’ll build that out and we’re pretty confident that they could deliver on that in a profitable manner at no additional statements of work, etc. Because the model is so that using a pre-configured system like Pharma Cloud, etc., can assure them that they could achieve that, right? Driving that change mindset with the customer is more important on implementation and the software itself and the adoption there.
What I do see on top of that is, as customers build their foundation on such a cloud ERP, is that in smaller topics like a CFO might say, “I want to improve my day sales outstanding. It’s now at 44 days, I want to bring it back to 40.” That many firms would say, “Hey, we’ve built up that knowledge with many other customers and clients where we’ve done this so we could deliver this as an outcome,” right? If we reach 42, we get X. If we reach 40, we get X and if we go lower, there would be a bonus in there.
Because they feel so confident that they can control the change process here and I’m with you, Ross, on that one, right? If it’s much more on the client side and there’s so many uncertainties, you wouldn’t go outcome based that easily. But if you’re more in control as a firm, you could see the process in a certain direction definitely, right? I think the commercials would even go both ways, right? If we achieve something, they’re seeing it for both of us, right? From a client and firm perspective. These models will grow but I think they need to grow with smaller projects. Before a full and peer ERP implementation, it will be an outcome-based model. I think that’s a little bit future, so to say.
Daniel Newman: By the way, I mean, there could be huge upside for the professional services firms. Those that have the confidence, the visibility, the read into the market that know that their intelligence and their competencies and capabilities are going to bring upsized results.
Hans Kroes: You can imagine the word on the street, right? If it becomes known that this customer, that they actually helped other firms to improve their business, work on their value, and achieve those outcomes, right? It’s great for the brands as well.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. It’s a little bit like the business development expert that comes into your company and says, “Hey, I think I can grow you by 20% but I’m going to want 30% of everything I bring.” Well, it’s an oversimplified model but the point is that level of confidence in saying, “Hey, I’m going to tie myself to an outcome but it’s going to be a very lucrative one for me as well.” I think as firms, like I said, with data, informations, models, AI, automation processes, and a track record could move to that model and actually see growth and see it become a growth opportunity. So that lends us to the talent side of the house though, you’re going to need incredible talent to accomplish those kinds of results.
So you can go to any model you want, but in the end, I genuinely believe most professional services firms that make it grow and become household names within organizations do so because the talent that they bring to the table is seen as world class, differentiated, unique, all those different things. So we were at an interesting impasse when it comes to talent. Ross, I’m sure in your books you talk about this quite a bit, but we’ve got the labor shortages, we’ve got low labor participation, we’ve got companies stuck right now overpaying for every contractor, every employee. Of course, we’re starting to see maybe that balance out with the changing in Fed policy and higher interest rates and potentially a little bit of a recession but talent is got to be one of the most important things to making a professional services firm work. So what’s your thoughts on the space of talent, nurturing talent, finding, identifying, keeping, and making sure you’re able to put the best talent forth to your clients?
Ross Dawson: Well, as you suggested, so every industry is creating value through a combination of essentially technology and processes and people. Professional services is based on professionals and professionals are people that have expertise and apply that. Supported by technologies, applied through technologies, but the humans are the heart of this. And so, that combination of technology and humans is absolutely central. Now, I believe that in this world, the one thing that will attract talent is the ability to learn so this is all about, as John Hagel puts it, the shift from scalable efficiency to scalable learning. So if you can implement in a professional service firm that you can scale the learning of the individual which flows through to their peers, which flows through the organization, which flows through to their clients, and their ability to learn that is the winning formula.
No professional wants to stay static because you have losing your livelihood in a fast changing world so all firms tend to be based on how it is that you can accelerate the learning. And so, part one of the key things about learning is more and more that it is peer learning. You are learning with your peers, the other experts, which are on the edge. You don’t want to work with somebody that doesn’t have access to those whether those are internal experts or external experts. So this comes to the field of talent networks and my second book about living networks and this idea of how it is that we’re bringing the networks to life through our connections.
Fundamentally, any successful firm, but particularly a professional firm, is a high performance network where the right people are connected the right way in the right time to address the client’s challenges and opportunities. In that way, both learning, co-creating knowledge, and co-creating value inside the firm or with the clients and… There’s obviously many other facets such as their conditions of being able to work remotely, engagement, but learning and the ability to learn and designing a firm for learning is what indubitably will attract the best talent.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. I like that a lot. As we head towards the end of this, I want to have a run on one last topic and I’m going to want you to maybe tie the talent topic here to this final topic about platforms because this is almost the penultimate example of the amalgamation of humans and technology coming together, right? The platform is the enabler. Every company on the planet right now is “becoming a platform company”. That’s a little bit of a exaggeration but that is the way it feels right now. Nobody has a point product or service, you’re a platform.
But in the professional services space, you really do need to have a platform to offer excellence to your customers. That excellence is a platform that brings together people, technology, products, processes, all the different things that are at the core. So what do you see as the evolution going forward that is going to enable companies to A, become professional services platforms and B, do so while attracting and growing and nurturing the best talent on the planet?
Hans Kroes: It’s an interesting question because I think… I take the few years as going two ways. One would be perhaps all professional services expert become freelancers, right? They go on the platform, they deliver their service, and they get a, call it pay per use, pay per transaction, or whatever they deliver. In a business network, so to say, they can deliver to multiple clients or to multiple firms that then go to their end customers. If you look at the, I would say, the next generation professional experts, they tend to have a little bit of a different point of view on how they want to live, right? How they want to build their careers, how they want to utilize technology much more, right? They were born with the iPhone in their hand more or less, right? We’re a little bit older before that all got started.
So that’s one way I think and with that, I think for firms in the future, it’s going to be really tough to do whatever possible, right? To retain talent as part of your organization. I think the firms need to figure out what’s the benefit of having so many people at the company, should it rather not become a networked company where we’re open to utilize the expertise when we require it. So on a regular basis, right? Make sure we could buy it in or perhaps connect with smaller firms that can deliver some of these pieces. I think the other parts, future would be, I think a professional service expert will be more data analyst and on top of can then deliver the expertise in communicative way because the data’s going to help them to really prove for their next steps on where the end customer or its service should go to.
It’s a little bit the opposite of, if you look at a company like Accenture, half a million employees today, ambition to perhaps go tenfold in the next 10 years, right? So to massively scale, how many people you would have? You could say, is that having total control? I think that’s a thing, especially, I would say management of our age so to say or those that are little bit traditionally looking at it need to change that mindset about how big of a team and more experts, how more I can deliver to the customer versus perhaps I should be much more agile and lean and get the expertise when I need it but just make sure I have the network behind me in order to deliver as such. I think that’s the nice tension, I would say, towards the market here.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. I think it’s okay to have some of that tension. In fact, I think that tension’s going to be critical for the ability for these firms to improve. As an outsider looking in, I think there are some firms that are doing tremendous work and I think there are some that are very much stuck in old modalities and it’s going to be upon them to find those new opportunities whether that’s with technology, changing talent, changing the way they monetize their business, changing the way they hire and where they hire people to make sure they’ve got that right talent. You guys have brought that up throughout the show but I think the thing is, companies like yours, whether it’s Ross, you working with individual companies or speaking to groups or Hans, SAP working to provide technologies and platforms, is that stagnation or stagnant practices are going to kill a lot of companies.
You’re going to see disruptors enter the space. You’re going to see old, well-known professional service firms get crushed and you’re going to see new ones rise from the ashes of those. Especially, like I said, in these tougher economic moments. By the way, in that paper, we talk about all of this stuff at large and hopefully, if you haven’t got the cue from me yet, get in there and check it out. You’ll want to hit that download button because it’s just a next layer of information.
But Ross, I’m going to let you do the futurist thing to end this conversation here. We just talked about the bringing the platform to the people to gather, you had a really eloquent way of tying those things together. But let’s talk just about the metaverse because everybody’s interested in that, right? We talked about more virtual, more remote, but are we going to be strapping on some glasses, at least the size of the ones I’m wearing right now, maybe significantly larger with a tether and a wire? Are we going to be meeting with our clients and developing products, buildings, product services, and doing strategy meetings in the metaverse in the future? Is that technology going to be a breakthrough for this industry?
Ross Dawson: Well, yes, but the timeframes are the big uncertainty. I think that as a futurist, one of the things you can think, there are some things which are inevitable but you don’t know how long they’re going to take. I think it is inevitable. Then, at some time, in the future, we will have the technologies where whether those are augmented contact lenses or anybody that already wears glasses is choosing to augment them or the other types of holographic displays external to us, whatever it may be, we will more and more have the ability to experience other people who are not in the same part of the planet feeling as if they’re in the same room.
And so, we’re getting close to that. We have a lot of avatar-based technologies and now, more and more hyper-realistic avatars but this is a decade. I think the latest is that Apple is supposed to release its mixed reality glasses in early next year while we have others that are still playing slowly in this. But I mean, I think we’re talking 5, 10 years to when this really starts to be something which is we consider an every day and moving beyond the flat screens for our video calls to far more immersive experiences but that will be transformational.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. I love it. Like I said, I see all these things as happening and they’re happening in parallel, these technologies, in some cases. The biggest problem I think in a lot of our world right now is our desire to make everything binary. Are we going to do it all in the metaverse? No. Is everything going to the cloud? No. Is everything going to be done with AI? No. Are those things going to be augmenting a lot of things? Yes. Will great companies be applying analytics and systems and technologies and… Yes. By the way, all of history, the companies have been able to apply the next wave of disruptive technologies have outperformed those companies that stuck with the old way, right? I mean, nobody’s dialing a rotary phone anymore. Nobody’s paging, nobody’s sending you a page when they need you to call them back.
Companies all use Zoom or video of some type to be able to bring people into meetings. We’re adopting. But being able to do a little faster, being able to embrace a little bit more data, being able to see the potential of new technologies, certainly something that sets the best professional services organizations apart from those that lag.
Ross, Hans, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate having you on the Futurum Tech Webcast.
Hans Kroes: Great pleasure.
Ross Dawson: Thanks so much, Dan. It’s been a pleasure.
Hans Kroes: Thanks, Ross.
Daniel Newman: So what a great topic, everybody. I appreciate you tuning in. If you enjoyed what you heard, go ahead and hit that subscribe button to the Futurum Tech Webcast. Also if you haven’t heard me mention, there is a really cool paper where we talk about the evolution and what’s going on and the challenges for professional services organizations, click on that to learn more there. Also, we’ll have some information on both of our guests so if you want to click and learn more about Ross’s books or about Han’s work at SAP, you’ll definitely be able to learn more about them in the show notes as well. Thanks SAP for being a partner and being part of this podcast series but for now, I got to say goodbye. We’ll see you all later.
Daniel Newman is the Principal Analyst of Futurum Research and the CEO of Broadsuite Media Group. Living his life at the intersection of people and technology, Daniel works with the world’s largest technology brands exploring Digital Transformation and how it is influencing the enterprise. Read Full Bio