In this episode of the Futurum Tech Webcast, Interview Series, I’m joined by Matt Baker who leads the development and implementation of business and technology strategies for the Infrastructure Solutions Group at Dell Technologies for a conversation about the challenges organizations have with the massive amounts of data they create, collect, and need, as well as a look at Dell Technologies’ recent study, The Data Paradox.
For starters, we know from our 2020 Digital Transformation Index where we take an annual look at companies’ progress as it relates to their digital transformation journeys, that it’s very common that businesses don’t have the right processes or technology, and they also often don’t have the culture or the skill set. And I know those findings were mirrored in Dell Technologies’ recent study as well. The Data Paradox digs deeper into a trend we’ve all been seeing – which is that businesses are swamped by data and are struggling to turn that data into insights that deliver business value.
The Data Paradox study surveyed 4K+ director and decision-makers responsible for strategies and digital transformation in five industries, from 40+ countries, and from small to large firms w/annual revenues spanning $10M to $100M+ — so it’s a very nice sample set. Matt and I discussed some of the data paradoxes their research uncovered along the way. These include:
- Businesses believe they are data driven but many are not treating data as capital and do not prioritize its use across the organization.
- Businesses are gathering data faster than they can analyze and use, yet they constantly need more data than their current capabilities can provide.
- Businesses recognize that an as-a-service model would enable them to be agile, scale, and reduce complexity, but only a few have made the transition to aaS offerings.
We also discussed some of the reasons businesses are struggling with data these days, which include data warehouses that aren’t optimized, the high costs of storage, outdated IT infrastructures, and/or manual processes that don’t meet today’s business needs. The graphic below is from The Data Paradox study —
Image Credit: Dell Technologies
Matt and I also explored the fact that figuring out how to compete in a data driven world is not only complicated, it’s expensive. Here’s a look at what survey respondents shared —
Image Credit: Dell Technologies
Why is all of this so important? Matt and I discussed the consequences of this data burden in an on-demand economy. The challenges organizations are struggling with include:
- 67% of businesses say they constantly need more data than their current capabilities provide
- On the other hand, 70% say they are gathering more data than they can analyze and use
- Analysis is lagging behind demand
- 61% of survey respondents say their teams are overwhelmed by the data they have
- 64% say they have too much data to meet security and compliance requirements
We also talked about the role of IT in digital transformation initiatives and how, in some instances, a short-term approach to IT strategy could be impacting progress. Note that Matt and I wholeheartedly agree that digital transformation is a corporate-wide undertaking, and not just something relegated to IT, and we talked at length about that and the importance of leadership’s participation in transformation efforts. This data from The Data Paradox report was interesting —
Image credit: Dell Technologies
What to do? It’s abundantly clear that organizations need a new way to deal with massive amounts of data. And that’s where the as-a-Service model comes in, which can enable organizations to be more agile, scale, and provision applications without complexity. How does the aaS model work? How can organizations obtain this holy grail? What’s the value of strategic partnerships? What do we really need from senior leaders in order for these initiatives to be successful? What about culture? What role does that play in digital transformation success? You’ll need to listen to our conversation to get to those juicy tidbits.
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The conversation with Matt Baker was a fascinating one, as is The Data Paradox report, which you’ll want to download and read. Managing data overload in the on-demand economy is a problem that’s become a significant barrier to transformation. If you want to uncover what’s preventing organizations from leveraging their data and learn how to overcome those challenges, this is one conversation you won’t want to miss. Oh, and go find Matt and connect with him over on LinkedIn while you’re at it. And if you and I aren’t yet connected there, you’ll find me on LinkedIn here.
Disclaimer: The Futurum Tech Webcast is for information and entertainment purposes only. Over the course of this podcast, we may talk about companies that are publicly traded and we may even reference that fact and their equity share price, but please do not take anything that we say as a recommendation about what you should do with your investment dollars. We are not investment advisors and we do not ask that you treat us as such.
Shelly Kramer: Hello and welcome to this episode of the Futurum Tech Webcast. I’m your host, Shelly Kramer and I’m joined today by Matt Baker who leads the development and implementation of business and technology strategies, that’s a mouthful, for the Infrastructure Solutions Group at Dell Technologies. And we’re going to talk today. We’re going to talk about breaking down the data paradox and the challenges that businesses are having with data, getting their arms around data, what to do with all the data that they have and really thoughts on how they can most effectively deal with that moving forward. So, Matt, great to have you.
Matt Baker: It’s great to be here. I’m excited to talk about this subject that’s near and dear to my heart.
Shelly Kramer: I always it’s near and dear to my heart as well. And it’s my favorite thing to do to geek out on these topics with fellow tech nerds. So on that front, we are in good company. So tell us a little bit about yourself and your career.
Matt Baker: Oh, sure. I’ve actually been at Dell for 17 years, so I’m a long hauler here. But before that, I was in IT. I was actually a practitioner, not a vendor. And so I like to think of that as my super power. I kind of understand the shoes that my customers are walking in.
Of course that knowledge is a little dated by now, but it’s always something I feel is important to stay in touch with, especially when we’re talking about issues like this, the data paradoxes, and ultimately, how do you find your way out of a paradox and really change the game? So, that’s the two major career steps. I’ve been, again, here at Dell for 17 years in a variety of roles, but I’ve been actually doing this strategy role for about the past 10 years, so been at it for quite a while.
Shelly Kramer: Right. Very cool. Well, I kind of wear multiple hats as well. So I’m a tech analyst, but I’m also a marketing brand strategist and have really helped businesses develop strategies and plot growth trajectories and all of those sort of things for the bulk of my career. So I look at things in the same way you do. There’s so much value to not only be a strategist on one hand and an analyst on another hand, but also having been fully immersed in actually doing these things that we’re now talking about or talking with customers about. I think that brings a lot legitimacy to what it is we’re able to provide.
Matt Baker: Oh, absolutely. And nothing better than to walk in someone else’s shoes and really sensitize yourself to what you’re… Ultimately what you’re trying to sell, but also really trying to be empathetic to the challenges that everybody faces. Intel was a big, large tech company, but not necessarily the IT shop of the future at the time. So faced the same kinds of challenges that pretty much everybody else had.
Shelly Kramer: Yeah. I think it makes us incredibly well-rounded. So I have been reading Dell Technologies’ recent study, The Data Paradox, and this study digs deeper into a trend that we’re all seeing. And that is that businesses are swamped by data and they’re struggling to turn that data into insights. Now, we know from our own 2020 Digital Transformation Index, which is a study where we take an annual look at company’s progress as it relates to their digital transformation journeys, we know that it’s very common for businesses to be in situations where they don’t have the right processes in place, they don’t have the right technology in place.
Oftentimes they don’t have the right culture, the right skillset. And I know that these findings were mirrored in your study as well. Before I have you tell us about the study though, I want to set the stage and just give our audience a little bit more information about the Dell Paradox study. They surveyed 4,000 plus, director and decision-makers responsible for strategies and digital transformation across five industries from 40 plus countries. And from both small to large firms with annual revenue spanning from 10 million to 100 million. So that’s a very, very nice survey set, right?
Matt Baker: Absolutely.
Shelly Kramer: So, Matt, before we get into some specifics about this study, which we will do a little bit later in this conversation, I’d love to hear more about the paradoxes you and the research team discovered along the way.
Matt Baker: Yeah. Well, I think the funniest thing about the survey, and the sort of lead up to this and the social amplification of what we’re talking about was sort of a riff on this notion of The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. It’s like the rime of the ancient data scientists. It’s data, data everywhere, but no insights to drink. Right? And so the paradoxes really mirror that. One is with businesses believe they’re data-driven, but they don’t prioritize the use of data across their organization. Right? So they have this desire and believe they actually are, but at the end of the day, they don’t have the frameworks and culture in place to really, truly be data-driven. They believe they need more data to be effective, but they feel like they can’t handle the amount of data they already have, right?
So it’s again, data, data everywhere, not an insight to drink. And many believe in the benefits of an as-a-service model in these types of environments, but few have made the investment and the leap into these as-a-service consumption models, which might help them rest control of these data paradoxes. So those are the three main paradoxes that come out of the survey.
Shelly Kramer: Yeah. And I think that, again, a lot of what your survey found, your results found, are very similar to what we see here at Futurum Research on a regular basis. But let’s talk a little bit about some of the reasons that businesses are struggling with data. And I feel like I say this phrase so often it could not be any cheesier, but the reality of business today, any organization, any size, is that data is the lifeblood of your business. It’s how you connect to your customers. It’s how you serve your customers. It’s how you serve your employees. I mean, every part of your business relies on data, right?
Matt Baker: Sure.
Shelly Kramer: But the challenge I think is that we have this on-demand economy, we have truly unprecedented amounts of data and we’re seeing businesses everywhere, struggling. One of the data points I saw from your survey is that 83% of people responding to the research said that they’re experiencing all or some of the following barriers. Their data warehouse is not optimized. Very high storage costs. They have an outdated IT infrastructure, or the manual processes that they have in place that they’ve been relying on for a very long time don’t meet the business needs. I mean, and when I hear these things, I mean, these are things we hear every day and absolutely correct, businesses by and large are either struggling with some of these things or all of these things.
Matt Baker: Yeah. Well, I think that there’s a lot of analogies that have been bandied about for the past five to 10 years around data. The one that comes along most often is, “Data’s the new oil.” And I feel like that’s one, a very tired analogy and one that’s fairly misguided, right? So if you were to believe that, then you would extract all of it, you’d store all of it, you’d process all of it, right? But somebody, I can’t actually remember who to attribute this to, but they described data more like water. A resource that needs to be cared for and treated. The Earth’s covered in lots of water, but most of it’s not drinkable. Either it’s seawater, right? So that’s data that’s not really useful and it’s expensive to turn into freshwater. And then our freshwater, well, it’s not already always safe and clean to drink, right?
So it’s the analogy of data more like water as this resource that needs to be cared for, cleaned, preserved, et cetera, is I think a more apt one. And it’s sort of what we’re facing. And when you survey people about data, they’re having a hard time finding clean drinking water, right? And therefore they’re wading through all of this polluted data environment. They’re saving everything. They can’t find what they need. Data scientists spend 80% of their time basically cleansing data, finding data. It’s frankly a bit of a mess, right? And so if you’re storing everything and not getting rid of everything, if you don’t have a good framework around discovery, caring for your data, of course it’s going to be this resource that, in essence, starts to drown you. And that’s why I think the water analogy is better. But most of the survey respondents said… 70% say they’re gathering data faster than they can process it and use it, right?
Which suggests that maybe they’re capturing too much data, right? Maybe they should be taking a different approach. 64% of them believe that they have too much data to meet security and compliance requirements, right? So they’re fearful that this data is becoming a liability. And then ultimately 61% of them are consequently dealing with overwhelmed data teams. Like I said, the data scientists, these very important, frankly, highly paid, expensive resources, people, are overwhelmed doing… 80% of the time not developing new code or new algorithms. Instead they’re frankly digging trenches to try to get the data to come towards them. It’s a bit of a mess.
Shelly Kramer: Well, and data has, to your water analogy, which is a terrific analogy, data has a lifespan. It has a finite lifespan. And so when you have massive amounts of data that are just sitting there, it very quickly becomes saltwater that doesn’t do you any good at all. And so I think that’s a really important part of this equation. Another part of this equation that I think is incredibly critical is that figuring out how to compete in a data-driven world is expensive.
And when we have these conversations, when I have these conversations and we talk about, “Businesses need to be doing this,” and “You need to be doing more with this and investing more here,” or whatever, I also do that knowing how challenging it is to figure out your technology stack and to figure out your vendor relationships and partnerships and everything. I mean, this is a very, very complex equation, right? But I think that when we look at what businesses are doing with regard to their IT spend, it’s growing very rapidly. And I think that was something that came out of your report that I thought was really tremendously interesting, that more than half of the survey respondents have not yet come close to realizing their digital transformation goals. However, their IT spend is mounting rapidly and it’s continuing to do so and will continue to do so.
Matt Baker: Yeah. I think that there’s, in fact, a little bit of a paradox buried inside of that observation. So on one hand, I would say that a lot of times the approach that… Folks are utilizing old and antiquated approaches to new problems. The example that we just talked about is storing everything, right? In a modern sort of machine learning AI environment, which a lot of us are trying to get towards, you’re not capturing every single piece of data and storing it for the longterm. In fact, you’re capturing very little, right? So once you’ve trained an algorithm for say, a machine vision or any type of automation, the data that you’re then taking in, you’re really only going to store the events that are anomalous, right? But in traditional data warehousing, it was all about, get everything back into one location so that I can then post-process it.
So moving into real time suggests that, “Look, we need to adopt new approaches and new techniques.” Taking and storing everything in perpetuity is going to get incredibly expensive, right? So to some degree, I think the cost of IT ramping has a lot to do with not getting over the hump of adopting new technologies that would allow you to better parse your data, discover what is relevant and needed for the long haul and discarding the vast majority of the rest of it, right? Not keeping all of the stuff around. That’s easier said than done, but those are the types of capabilities that we’re helping our customers build. On the other hand, why I think it’s a paradox is that as you become more digitally transformed, then IT becomes a bigger part of your business. Right? And therefore, if you’re doing it right, then IT as a percent of revenue probably should go up because it suggests that you’re actually becoming successful.
So I think it’s okay for IT costs to ramp provided that you feel like you’re making the true transformation. And so that’s why I say there’s a bit of a paradox buried inside of that very fact. So to me, it’s about adopting new technologies, processes, and of course, addressing the people issue to operate those technologies, I think gets you a long way to economizing your use of data once you sort of become a little bit more of a digital leader versus a digital laggard. The other part of it, frankly, is we have to get to a point where we are consuming what we really need. And a part of that is why we mentioned in the study as a service models as a way of economizing the use of technology and more variabilizing your use of technology.
Shelly Kramer: So we’re talking about IT and of course, again, we just have talked about this a little bit, but IT plays a tremendously important role in business success overall, right? But IT strategies and, in some cases, how they might be hindering the shifts that need to happen in order for companies to be better positioned to effectively use data is relevant. It’s a relevant topic of conversation. And I think that you touched on this earlier to a certain degree, but from the Data Paradox study, you found that 64% of respondents said that they intend to keep a significant amount of data in the data centers they own and control. Again, something you just touched on. And that only 35% are looking to increase proof of concept data uses at the edge.
That’s a really low number, and it tells me that a significantly large group of people don’t really understand the role that edge computing plays and how compute and storage at the edge are incredibly important business capabilities and business drivers. So I thought that was a really interesting data point coming out of the report, also showing that 60% of people are battling data silos. Well, of course. And that 56% have yet to make any improvements to their IT structure that’s geared for rapid data ingestion, so those were some significant numbers.
Matt Baker: Yeah. Those are significant numbers, but let’s sort of take them in kind, right? First of all, edge potentially can be ill-defined in some of the surveys, right? So when we say edge where we include many things, including branch store… Retail locations, branch offices, where sometimes people see the word edge and they think IoT, right? And therefore I’m not in the IoT business. So I think to some degree, there is a bit of that that could be impacting the data. But I think the thing that is most important for people to be keeping in mind around their IT strategy and their data strategy, frankly, is that we see that the world is moving very rapidly towards real time digitally fueled processes. So a great analogy, although most of us have been sort of locked in our homes unfortunately because of the pandemic and retail seems like an odd choice, but it’s frankly a really good example of what we will experience in the world around us, where we have retail locations that are increasingly looking to do real time advertising through mobile apps as you walk through the store.
That has to be done… That compute and storage and all of that has to be done in that location. There’s this thing called the speed of light. You can’t send it back to a data center 2000 miles away and expect it to be real time. I will have passed the serial by then, right? We have to think through what it means to exist in an environment that is truly real time. It could be an end user… I should say, an end customer experience in entertainment. Say you’re at an amusement park and different… Let’s say you’re near this ride, the line is short, or whatever it could be. So I think the edge discussion might be a little bit thrown off by the misunderstandings of what this new buzzword means. But when we flip forward to the other ones, I think that’s back to, have we truly modernized for this digital future?
And I think all of the data suggests that a lot of people still feel like they’re digital laggards and finding the digital leaders is pretty hard to do, right? There aren’t that many of them. And in fact, this study showed that a number of folks really feel like they’re data novices. People are not really far behind, right? As I know, having been in IT as I said in the beginning, things tend to take a lot longer than we might think, right? So I think everyone should have hope that, look, we can get over this hump. And we, at Dell Technologies are focused on helping you get over that hump. But it’s not super easy. It’s not easy. We’ve been doing certain things a certain way for a long time with data warehouses, post-process BI analytics. All that stuff remains important. But we just need to get used to and educated around the new stuff. And the new stuff is the machine learning, deep learning, AI, et cetera. And those are the technologies that are going to help us shift into this new digital reality, which focuses a lot on automation.
Shelly Kramer: Absolutely. And I think that this is really where, to me, organizations have an opportunity to kind of step back and to say, “I know that this is the way that we’ve always done things.” But the reality of it is, look at how technology has changed our world just in the last decade and how quickly that evolution has happened. Well, that is going to continue at an even more rapid pace, right? So the way we used to do things really isn’t relevant anymore. What do we need to do moving forward that empowers the business and helps with growth and our ability to compete and all of those? And our ability to attract and retain employees.
I mean, all of these things play a role. So I think that one of the things that we started talking about a little bit was the value of as-a-service models. There’s lots of as a service offerings out there. But that’s really where, when it comes to IT and an as-a-service offering really can help enable organizations to be more agile, help them scale up and down as needed, provision applications without complexity. All of these things are really important and that’s really where technology in an as-a-service way adds huge business value that I think really needs to be something that IT leaders are considering.
Matt Baker: Well, that’s why we launched APEX at Dell, which is there are some core capabilities that you need to have. And in many cases, we can help provide those core capabilities for you, which frees you up to focus on the business value driving elements of your IT strategy. So we really feel like you can, to some degree, get out of the business of certain things and get into the business of other things. That’s what an as-a-service model can enable. It can also help you economize your real [inaudible] period. It can do all sorts of great stuff. But I want to return to the part that you started with, which was, you have to be intentional about this. And this comes really down to a leadership model, which is, we can’t continue to do things the way we’ve always done them.
Shelly Kramer: Just because.
Matt Baker: Yeah, just because. And to be honest with you, there’s a bit… I don’t want to say… We’re not out of the woods yet with COVID-19 of course, and there’s been a lot of hardship associated with it, no doubt. But the one thing it taught us was how important technology and digital technologies were to us weathering this storm that we’ve all been experiencing. And if anything is a silver lining from the perspective of IT folks, it’s the realization that, “Yeah, actually, we can’t do things the way we used to. And therefore I am more enlightened about the role that digital technology has in my business going forward. And therefore, I am more willing to break with the past and really lean into the future.”
And that is why we are so focused on this data paradox. The technology is there. The knowledge is there. Yeah, there are skills gaps, and we can touch on that a little bit more, but there are people there to help. The last thing you want to do is find yourself in your industry, being disrupted by some new outsider who is taking this notion of digital and digital transformation more seriously.
I published a blog just a couple of weeks ago that I called the Digital Knothole. And it’s sort of like each industry one by one is getting disrupted digitally. I would rather squeeze through a knothole myself than be dragged through it with all of my peers. It would be way more painful. So it’s really about being proactive. And again, I’ll touch on the silver lining. We faced a lesson over the last year, two, which is, look, you have to be a bit more proactive. I feel so fortunate being at Dell Technologies because we invested in this work from a newer concept 10 years ago. So one day in March, flip of a switch-
Shelly Kramer: No big deal.
Matt Baker: It just happened. But not everybody was in that same position. Right? So this is another lesson to be learned, which is, it’s better to be on your toes than on your heels. And yeah, 54% of respondents feel like data novices. That’s okay. But recognize it and move forward.
Shelly Kramer: Right. I very much look at the COVID-19 pandemic as a huge blessing for us in so many ways. And I think there was a tendency before we were immersed in all of this insanity to think, “Yeah that sounds really good. I’m going to just put that on my will do later,” or whatever. And it’s kind of like, “We can do this. Yes, we can,” and we just proved it. Right? I mean, we had to prove it. And we had to be able to transition employees to work from home. And we had to be able to enable our customer service reps and our sales reps to be able to serve our customers and to keep them happy and to provide good customer experiences. And it was just like, “Holy crap. I had no idea we could do this,” but we were forced to quickly pivot and look what we learned and look what we made happen.
So to me, I do feel like it has been, like you said, kind of a giant silver lining. I think that another thing that I always feel is an important part of this conversation when we’re talking about taking this leap of faith and changing business as usual from an IT standpoint and how you think about that and how you plan and strategize around that. I think the other really important thing to remember is the value of strategic partnerships. And you are in the big technology space, I’m in the big technology space. Every day we’re seeing more strategic partnerships announced with very big companies and it only makes sense, because we are living in times where you really can’t do everything yourselves, even if you always have. And so that’s really where… And so when you see some of the most gigantic leaders in industry partnering with one another and look at that and follow their lead and understand that there’s a reason in strategic partnerships, strategic vendor relationships are the path to success.
And I think that’s when… When we’re talking about APEX and an as-a-service model and everything else, there’s a services part of these kinds of offerings that go along with the technology services. And what you’re getting when you work with a strategic vendor partner is you’re getting their expertise and learning from working with other customers with other challenges, different challenges, similar challenges, whatever. But I think they bring all of that knowledge base and all of that experience into the equation of working with you. And I think that to me, is a huge part of this value proposition that shouldn’t be left unmentioned.
Matt Baker: Yeah, I think that the sort of leaning in together and for us being very customer centric and having big ears to listen to the challenges our customers have, we learn more… We have more direct conversations with folks trying to do this business of digital transformation than anyone on the planet. And we’re here to help. We’re here to be that strategic partner. But I would also say that as an industry, for a decade or more, we kind of got away from ecosystems. And I have a feeling that we’re going to get back to ecosystems in a really big way going forward. And you’re going to see a lot of new partnerships popping up in unexpected places that really help… Because it’s true. It’s such a pervasive, big deal to move into this quote, unquote, “fourth industrial revolution.”
Shelly Kramer: It is.
Matt Baker: It’s an all play, right? And the more knowledge you’re able to funnel through to the business challenges you’re facing, all the better. Right? And so that’s why you see us with partnerships across the spectrum. Helping bring more to our customers and really helping them sort through what, yeah, is a complicated technology space. But also helping provide lessons on what other companies are doing that might look like you, or maybe don’t look like you, but a certain aspect of could really provide a breakthrough. And so I’m super excited about the future because I know everyone is like, “Yeah. We did it. We did it over the last two years. We really made huge leaps in terms of digital business and transformation. Let’s keep building on those wins and really accelerate them. Don’t be worried by the fact that we feel like novices because frankly having a novice mind is a really good thing. It means you’re open to taking in. And if you recognize that, then you can go get the help needed.”
But it really does. We talk a lot about IT strategy and IT this, IT that. This takes enlightenment, effort, and conviction from leadership.
Shelly Kramer: Absolutely.
Matt Baker: If that’s going to happen, some grassroots movement, those are really important, and I’ve seen some amazing grassroots data-driven efforts within companies. But true transformation needs to come from conviction of the leadership of an organization, a company, et cetera. And so that’s where this notion of people comes in. If you’re convicted that you’re moving down this digital path, then you’re going to start to organize. You’re going to bring in the right talent. You’re going to train your existing talent. You’re going to do everything it takes to make it happen. And I think that’s another lesson that comes out of the study is, yeah, there’s skills gaps, there’s all of these things. But once you have that conviction to move forward, things start to get a lot easier than just trying to incrementally move your way through the problem. So leadership is critical. Yeah, the skills gap exists, but we’ve had skills gaps with every major IT transformation throughout the past many decades. And we always seem to come through it pretty good.
Shelly Kramer: Well, and not just IT transformation. With every transformation, period. And I think that we talk a lot about this here at Futurum, and digital transformation is not just about technology. Technology is just one small piece of a transformation journey. And it’s really all about people and culture and creating a culture of innovation and curiosity and a data-driven culture. And that permeates from the highest level. This is not just an IT project.
Matt Baker: No.
Shelly Kramer: It’s not just those guys, right?
Matt Baker: If you approach it that way, you’re going to fail.
Shelly Kramer: You are. This is an everybody thing. And this is a… Get everybody hyped up about this and what this means for our business moving forward and what this means for your individual skillset and knowledge base moving forward, and what opportunities exist that you might never have thought of before? And so I think that as a true geek, like you, this excites me very much because I think that there are really great times ahead and transformational times ahead for businesses across every vertical, across every industry. Technology is absolutely a part of that. But your people, your leadership vision, how you go about being all in to making that happen is really an important part of that successful journey.
Matt Baker: Absolutely. It’s essential.
Shelly Kramer: Absolutely. Well, Matt, a very, very interesting conversation. I really loved diving into the Data Paradox study. I will link that here for our listeners or our viewing audience. I’ll link that in the show notes here so that you can access that and read it. And I think there are some really helpful bits of information in there if you’re embarking upon this journey or thinking about embarking on this journey and that sort of thing. And Matt, again, always a pleasure to hang out with you. And I thank you so much for sharing your [inaudible] here with us today.
Matt Baker: It was wonderful. I really enjoyed the conversation.
Shelly Kramer: Great. All right. Well, to our listening and viewing audience, thank you for hanging out with us today at the Futurum Tech Webcast, and if you haven’t yet hit the subscribe button either over on YouTube or on your podcast channel, do that now so that you don’t miss an episode. Yeah. And we’ll see you again next time.